Curse

melissa b · Mar 12, 2011, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Comparing against the Sunspear doesn't hold, because there are MANY ways of progressing in the Sunspear title but there are only very few ways of progressing in the LDoA title.

For Sunspear, there are books, there are missions, there are Zaishen quests, DoA, other synergistic titles like Guardian and Vanquisher, you can also farm which is the most bot-like way.

For LDoA, there are no books or missions and no other synergistic titles. You can either only use Langmar's daily quests or exploit death leveling. The problem is combining these 2 would get you to LDoA too fast and they should slow it down. Now that they have Langmar's quests, they should FIX the exploits for death leveling and quest farming.

After fixing these exploits which would cut down the time taken for LDoA drastically, they should make the Langmar quests harder but more rewarding so people would STILL be interested in getting LDoA. Making the quests harder would also nudge more people to team up, since we don't have heroes in pre. What is the point of letting people solo all the way to LDoA by exploiting death leveling and quest farming?

Sunspear can definitely be compared to LDOA while not a clone it has many similarities. One of which is that many people obtain both titles by mob farming. People have many ways to achieve sunspear yet choose to mob farm because they want to get the title fast or for other reasons, thats their play-style. Who are you to say how other people should play or their play style should be nerfed. Farming mobs is not an exploit it's a reasonable method and play-style.

You say LDOA can be obtained too fast? What is the definition for too fast? Well certainly not 2 days. Why? Simple, a significant majority of all pve hall of monument statues for honor can be achieved in less than 2 days. Currently there are over 40 pve Hall of Monument honor statues. Which of those that doesn't have a prequisite of completing titles to obtain takes longer than 2 days? I can think of 1, Master of the North. LDOA is not a superior title than any other pve title so quit trying to make it one. The only pve titles that can be argued as a special case would be master of the north (pretty much requires doing everything offered in the entire eotn campaign) gwamm (requires several titles to obtain) and to a lesser extent the other prequisite titles (requires 3 or more titles to obtain).

Lasai · Mar 12, 2011, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

If you want LDoA, you should at least learn to play as a team.

And why is that?

Daesu · Mar 12, 2011, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by melissa b

Sunspear can definitely be compared to LDOA while not a clone it has many similarities. One of which is that many people obtain both titles by mob farming. People have many ways to achieve sunspear yet choose to mob farm because they want to get the title fast or for other reasons, thats their play-style. Who are you to say how other people should play or their play style should be nerfed. Farming mobs is not an exploit it's a reasonable method and play-style.

So who are you to say how other people should play? I don't mob farm to get my sunspear, I get it through playing the game itself I still get my title.

Farming mobs may not be an exploit but death leveling monsters and repeated spawn farming through abandoning quests are. The point is you are all trying to achieve a title as fast as possible by exploiting game mechanics when other legit avenues are available for you. And worse of all, when these legit ways become available people complained to bring the OLD grindy exploits back into the game. This is why I have always despised and laughed at the old LDoA title. You dont take skills to complete it, most of them don't even know how to call targets to sync up with team mates. All they know is to run a mindless bot.

Nice sounding heroic title, but ironically most of them who got it the old way used cheats and exploits. Titles by themselves don't show whether you are a good player or not, it is the means of getting said title that shows what kind of player you are.

My New Name · Mar 13, 2011, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by melissa b

Sunspear can definitely be compared to LDOA while not a clone it has many similarities. One of which is that many people obtain both titles by mob farming. People have many ways to achieve sunspear yet choose to mob farm because they want to get the title fast or for other reasons, thats their play-style. Who are you to say how other people should play or their play style should be nerfed. Farming mobs is not an exploit it's a reasonable method and play-style.

You say LDOA can be obtained too fast? What is the definition for too fast? Well certainly not 2 days. Why? Simple, a significant majority of all pve hall of monument statues for honor can be achieved in less than 2 days. Currently there are over 40 pve Hall of Monument honor statues. Which of those that doesn't have a prequisite of completing titles to obtain takes longer than 2 days? I can think of 1, Master of the North. LDOA is not a superior title than any other pve title so quit trying to make it one. The only pve titles that can be argued as a special case would be master of the north (pretty much requires doing everything offered in the entire eotn campaign) gwamm (requires several titles to obtain) and to a lesser extent the other prequisite titles (requires 3 or more titles to obtain).

i would like to see you vanquish Tyria in 2 days...

melissa b · Mar 13, 2011, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

1 So who are you to say how other people should play? I don't mob farm to get my sunspear, I get it through playing the game itself I still get my title.

2 Farming mobs may not be an exploit but death leveling monsters and repeated spawn farming through abandoning quests are. The point is you are all trying to achieve a title as fast as possible by exploiting game mechanics when other legit avenues are available for you. And worse of all, when these legit ways become available people complained to bring the OLD grindy exploits back into the game. This is why I have always despised and laughed at the old LDoA title. You dont take skills to complete it, most of them don't even know how to call targets to sync up with team mates. All they know is to run a mindless bot.

3 Nice sounding heroic title, but ironically most of them who got it the old way used cheats and exploits. Titles by themselves don't show whether you are a good player or not, it is the means of getting said title that shows what kind of player you are.

1 I never told anyone how to play. I just noted observations in local chat. Nor did my intent of my message imply that 100% of people obtain a title through mob farming.

2 You say farming mobs is an exploit conditionally if it is quest spawned and abandoned (maybe you also mean quest spawned and not completed too since many people never abandon the quest-they simply rezone or map out).
However this is not an exploit either way. As it has existed openly for a very long time as method to progressing or completing titles without be nerfed or called an exploit by anet and openly encouraged on the official wiki in guides. Examples as follows.....
a) http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Legen...der_Of_Ascalon This links explains how to get LDOA on the official wiki and states "Perhaps even better, repeatedly abandon and re-accept the quest Charr at the Gate (point 1 on map below). That quest spawns 4 Charr and you have Prince Rurik and his guards doing the killing for you. " this was in reference to going from level 7 to level 10 as a step towards the LDOA title long before the new quests were added.
b)http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Light...nk#Acquisition This link explains how to quest spawn bosses and margonites to speedily obtain the lightbringer title. You spawn these mobs through 2 quests repeatedly by never turning in the quest or if you accidentally complete, abadon and retake the quest.

Yes we are trying to achieve a title as fast as possible but through a historically legitimate method but newly available in this case to complete the LDOA title. As far as not taking much skill, its a point based title with no hard mode requirement of which most of these require no or little skill. Even doing 1 quest a day and not mob farming takes no skill. As far as botting, well many titles are bottable but thats up to anet to police and the person playing to respect the terms of service.

3. How do you know most people cheated the title. Also, the method to get a title shouldn't be 1 way is the right way. There should be different ways for different peoples preferred play methods. How you get a title has little to no bearing in proving skill. The best skilled player could pay a runner to complete a dungeon. While a terrible player could redo a dungeon over and over and over and memorize all spawns and copy wiki builds and eventually beat it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by My New Name

i would like to see you vanquish Tyria in 2 days...

2 Days = 48 hours playtime on the account. 54 zones to vanquish. Utilizing a partner, cons and caravaning. It can be done. For all zones except one parties of 8 can play so do this. Depending on the zone either split up into 2 teams of 4 or stay as 1 Team whichever amounts to the fastest clear. All or almost all zones can be vanquished in less than an hour this way. Results: Tyria Vanquished in less than 2 days.

A better question would be obtain Treasure hunter in less than 2 days. Which I didn't list because it will (based on title change trends) or at least should be changed to require a lower level rank for a statue.

Gli · Mar 13, 2011, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

You do realize that many casual players rather do something else than to go out and repeatedly kill the same old spawns and over and over again, do you?

I rather play new content than to repeatedly grind old ones. It is your choice if you like to play like a mindless bot, just dont expect everyone to do so.

You quoted my post but it doesn't seem as if you've actually read or understood it. I'm advocating NOT doing any grinding and NOT repeatedly killing anything at all. I'm questioning why I would want to do that if I can get by by spending 5 minutes once in a while, when I feel like doing a Vanguard quest, to expend the minimum effort required to cash in 1,000 experience.

The title you eventually gain will display just the same, without any kind of shameful notification attached that you didn't finish it before some arbitrary deadline. Once you manage to hit level 10, any further 'grind' is purely unnecessary and wholly self-inflicted. Complaining about it is moronic and very reminiscent of an addict blaming his lot on the substance he abuses.

Tom Swift · Mar 13, 2011, 02:00 AM // 02:00

Sheesh I have no sympathy with people complaining about the new LDoA quests. Ok, so if you want to zone in and out again and again you can kill the same couple of high level bandits over and over. Big deal. You are getting experience for killing things - that's how the game is played. Duh

Daesu · Mar 13, 2011, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by melissa b

2 You say farming mobs is an exploit conditionally if it is quest spawned and abandoned (maybe you also mean quest spawned and not completed too since many people never abandon the quest-they simply rezone or map out).
However this is not an exploit either way. As it has existed openly for a very long time as method to progressing or completing titles without be nerfed or called an exploit by anet and openly encouraged on the official wiki in guides. Examples as follows.....
a) http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Legen...der_Of_Ascalon This links explains how to get LDOA on the official wiki and states "Perhaps even better, repeatedly abandon and re-accept the quest Charr at the Gate (point 1 on map below). That quest spawns 4 Charr and you have Prince Rurik and his guards doing the killing for you. " this was in reference to going from level 7 to level 10 as a step towards the LDOA title long before the new quests were added.

It is an exploit no matter how you look at it. Does it even make sense in the lore that to be a "Legendary Defender of Ascalon", you have to let the charrs kill you and repeatedly resurrect until you level them up so you can kill them to gain XP? Does this even make sense as a game play mechanic for an average pre-searing player that just bought this game?

Having said that, unfortunately it is also an exploit that ANet used to encourage through a broken mechanism in the game that allows monsters to level up by killing you repeatedly. We know that ANet doesn't always do the right thing for the game. They thought that by getting people interested in LDoA, they can extend the "life" of GW1 until GW2 is ready even if they are encouraging people to exploit a broken mechanism of the game.

Quote:

b)http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Light...nk#Acquisition This link explains how to quest spawn bosses and margonites to speedily obtain the lightbringer title. You spawn these mobs through 2 quests repeatedly by never turning in the quest or if you accidentally complete, abadon and retake the quest.

Again another exploit that doesn't make sense to the game mechanic or the lore. But fortunately in this case, you dont need to use this exploit to progress in your lightbringer title as there are many other legit ways to do that.

On the other hand, before this update, death leveling was the only way to obtain LDoA. You didn't have a choice if you wanted this title.

Quote:

Yes we are trying to achieve a title as fast as possible but through a historically legitimate method but newly available in this case to complete the LDoA title.

It is still exploiting a broken game mechanic, granted it was one which would probably not get you banned since that was the only way for anyone to get LDoA back then.

Now that we have a proper way of getting LDoA through quests, why do we have to revert to depend on using such exploits again? It is time for ANet to get rid them and work on the actual game play experience itself.

Quote:

As far as not taking much skill, its a point based title with no hard mode requirement of which most of these require no or little skill. Even doing 1 quest a day and not mob farming takes no skill. As far as botting, well many titles are bottable but thats up to anet to police and the person playing to respect the terms of service.

LDoA is one of the most bottable titles because it is one of the most simple (i.e. don't need skill or intelligence) to achieve. The thing that stops most people from achieving this title is just the degree of boredom, which bots are totally immune from.

Quote:

3. How do you know most people cheated the title. Also, the method to get a title shouldn't be 1 way is the right way. There should be different ways for different peoples preferred play methods.

As I know many people who have botted to get this title, then it stands to reason that there are many more people whom I do not know of, who also botted to get this title.

Different ways of getting the title, should not include botting or exploiting broken game mechanics. It should be different ways of playing this game legitly, not legitimizing the use of bots and hacks.

Quote:

How you get a title has little to no bearing in proving skill. The best skilled player could pay a runner to complete a dungeon. While a terrible player could redo a dungeon over and over and over and memorize all spawns and copy wiki builds and eventually beat it.

Again, the game has many exploits and these should be addressed each on their own. Even a terrible player can get better by trying to beat this game repeatedly using legit methods than relying on exploits. Hiring a runner and going afk would not make you a better player.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

The title you eventually gain will display just the same, without any kind of shameful notification attached that you didn't finish it before some arbitrary deadline. Once you manage to hit level 10, any further 'grind' is purely unnecessary and wholly self-inflicted. Complaining about it is moronic and very reminiscent of an addict blaming his lot on the substance he abuses.

I think the new quests are a step in the right direction. All we need now is for ANet to:

1. Close the death leveling exploit for LDoA
2. Close the vanguard quest exploit for people who repeatedly farm the spawns.

Reason: People are complaining that the new quests encourages easy (i.e. 2-days) LDoA.

Next, ANet can do more to improve on this further by:

1. Make the quests harder so people are encouraged to party up
2. Make the rewards better so people are still interested in getting LDoA after all the above changes.

melissa b · Mar 13, 2011, 02:32 AM // 02:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Exploit Bot Cheat Hack Exploit Exploit Exploit......Exploit Cheat....Bot.

Saying something is an exploit repeatedly does not make it an exploit. Also if some people you know use a bot does not prove that MOST people bot. Show me some proof that quest spawned mob farming is an exploit, than we can talk. I've already shown the official wiki encourages it and has been around for ages.

Daesu · Mar 13, 2011, 02:36 AM // 02:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by melissa b

Saying something is an exploit repeatedly does not make it an exploit. Also if some people you know use a bot does not prove that MOST people bot. Show me some proof that quest spawned mob farming is an exploit, than we can talk. I've already shown the official wiki encourages it and has been around for ages.

I don't need a web link to tell you that death leveling is an exploit. Just use your brain and think. Do you think the fact that monsters level by owning you repeatedly at a resurrection shrine is an important aspect of this game play design or storyline?

King Adelbern said, "Go forth and recruit the strongest, the smartest. Bring to me the bravest in all Ascalon. Find me the heroes who will lead our kingdom to glory." Did he say, find me the heroes that would get repeatedly owned by charrs at a resurrection shrine so he can level them up? Are you playing like a hero as the story meant you to be, when you do that by leveling charrs through your repeated death?

melissa b · Mar 13, 2011, 02:39 AM // 02:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I don't need a web link to tell you that death leveling is an exploit. Just use your brain and think. Do you think the fact that monsters level by owning you repeatedly at a resurrection shrine is an important aspect of this game play design or storyline?

You keep hashing on death leveling which I don't even care about nor have I talked about. My posts are focused on quest spawned mob farming NOT death leveling.

Daesu · Mar 13, 2011, 02:49 AM // 02:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by melissa b

You keep hashing on death leveling which I don't even care about nor have I talked about. My posts are focused on quest spawned mob farming NOT death leveling.

And that is one problem of being instanced in an area. I see this stealth update as ANet's bandaid for a low level to hire a high level to gain XP, not an actual fix to this problem.

Avatar of Me · Mar 13, 2011, 03:03 AM // 03:03

Remember the early days of Pre-searing? When it was believed that the maximum attainable level was 16?

No one complained about death leveling when the first person managed to reach level 20 in Pre-searing (long before this legendary defender title came about). Anet realized that people were leveling up the mobs by letting themselves get killed repeatedly, so they fixed it. For a time, monsters/charmable animals didn't gain exp after killing a player.

Many people complained about this. So much so, that Anet undid their fix. After a while, they even added this 'achievement' as a title. I still can't figure out why.

Star_Jewel · Mar 13, 2011, 03:25 AM // 03:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Now that we have a proper way of getting LDoA through quests, why do we have to revert to depend on using such exploits again?

You don't have to depend on "exploits" to get LDoA. You can do the daily quests once per day, and at 1000xp per day get your title.

Those who want to "fast track" their title can farm a bit. It's no different than the choices one has for Legendary Survivor -- play through each of the campaigns, or farm wurms or Kathandrax Hammers or Kilroy.

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It is time for ANet to get rid them and work on the actual game play experience itself.

They already have worked on a broad, fullfilling, varied game experience -- it's called Post-Searing.

Fact is, attaining level 20 in Pre is unnatural (it totally throws off the balance of half of the rest of Prophecies). Certainly staying in Pre is unnatural. But quite a few people did, and the developers shoehorned in some rewards for that unnatural playstyle. If you don't like it, you don't have to work for it. But I don't see the point in trying to impose Post-Searing values on this little tutorial area in an attempt to "normalize" one wonky title.

My New Name · Mar 13, 2011, 09:58 AM // 09:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by melissa b

2 Days = 48 hours playtime on the account. 54 zones to vanquish. Utilizing a partner, cons and caravaning. It can be done. For all zones except one parties of 8 can play so do this. Depending on the zone either split up into 2 teams of 4 or stay as 1 Team whichever amounts to the fastest clear. All or almost all zones can be vanquished in less than an hour this way. Results: Tyria Vanquished in less than 2 days.

A better question would be obtain Treasure hunter in less than 2 days. Which I didn't list because it will (based on title change trends) or at least should be changed to require a lower level rank for a statue.

lol it seems you have never vanquished a damn thing in your life;
that would be around 54 mins per area...
true there are 3-4 areas that can be done in like 20 mins and many can be done in that time capital,
but eastern frontier,snake dance,talus chute,deldrimor bowl(REALLY easy to miss a patrol and spend ages searching for it...) in kessex verata isnt easy to kill at all;the falls...all of those areas would take a lot more time to VQ
if you use cons for each area maybe but hardly,and who uses cons in VQ lol
you don't need them unless you are very bad
so i stand by my previous post

melissa b · Mar 13, 2011, 11:03 AM // 11:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by My New Name

lol it seems you have never vanquished a damn thing in your life;
that would be around 54 mins per area...
true there are 3-4 areas that can be done in like 20 mins and many can be done in that time capital,
but eastern frontier,snake dance,talus chute,deldrimor bowl(REALLY easy to miss a patrol and spend ages searching for it...) in kessex verata isnt easy to kill at all;the falls...all of those areas would take a lot more time to VQ
if you use cons for each area maybe but hardly,and who uses cons in VQ lol
you don't need them unless you are very bad
so i stand by my previous post

Look at the part I have bolded that you wrote then look at what strategy I stated to use and see why you have failed to invalidate my point.

Also, you mention for example Eastern Frontier taking over 54 minutes. If you can't beat that in a caravan of an 8-man party utilizing cons (which is what I specifically said to do to obtain the title fast) than you may want to uninstall.

Kessex Verata hard? Lol but whatever, not everyone is equal in skill.

Also please don't respond to this unless you want to pm since this is getting off topic. Thanks.

Lasai · Mar 13, 2011, 11:39 AM // 11:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by melissa b

Saying something is an exploit repeatedly does not make it an exploit. Also if some people you know use a bot does not prove that MOST people bot. Show me some proof that quest spawned mob farming is an exploit, than we can talk. I've already shown the official wiki encourages it and has been around for ages.

Exploit in the original meaning pre mmo. We all exploit the weak AI. We exploit lines of sight, exploit the loot code, exploit game mechanics.. and while none may be labeled as an official game exploit, exploitation it is. In the above case you are doing nothing more than exploiting quest spawn NPC solely for exp gain with no intention of actually completing the quest as intended.

Against the rules.. no. Exploit.. plainly, in the literal sense
1.
to utilize, especially for profit; turn to practical account: to exploit an opportunity.
2.
to use selfishly for one's own ends: employers who exploit their workers.
3.
to advance or further through exploitation; promote: He exploited his new movie through a series of guest appearances.

And I have to feel sorry for anyone who feels the need to supposedly Vanquish a continent in two days. One of the neat things about VQ is exploring as you do it, and seeing all the wonderful little bits of art scattered all over. I hope I never get so jaded that playing the game is just a chore that needs done in the least possible time.

melissa b · Mar 13, 2011, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasai

Exploit in the original meaning pre mmo. We all exploit the weak AI. We exploit lines of sight, exploit the loot code, exploit game mechanics.. and while none may be labeled as an official game exploit, exploitation it is. In the above case you are doing nothing more than exploiting quest spawn NPC solely for exp gain with no intention of actually completing the quest as intended.

Against the rules.. no. Exploit.. plainly, in the literal sense
1.
to utilize, especially for profit; turn to practical account: to exploit an opportunity.
2.
to use selfishly for one's own ends: employers who exploit their workers.
3.
to advance or further through exploitation; promote: He exploited his new movie through a series of guest appearances.

And I have to feel sorry for anyone who feels the need to supposedly Vanquish a continent in two days. One of the neat things about VQ is exploring as you do it, and seeing all the wonderful little bits of art scattered all over. I hope I never get so jaded that playing the game is just a chore that needs done in the least possible time.

When I responded to Daesu stating it was not an exploit I was referring to Daesu's contextual use of exploit...

"Now that we have a proper way of getting LDoA through quests, why do we have to revert to depend on using such exploits again?" implying improper

"you dont need to use this exploit to progress in your lightbringer title as there are many other legit ways to do that." implying illegitimate

Horus Moonlight · Mar 13, 2011, 10:34 PM // 22:34

This idea of death-leveling being an exploit (in the context that Daesu uses it) is lulzy at best. There are no natural laws of morality with regard to gameplay (gameplay. not social interactions) in GuildWars (or any other game for that matter). What is deemed bad is what Anet says is bad. What is deemed good is what Anet says is good. Seeing as there is a link in which Anet encourages death-leveling, it can only be assumed that death-leveling is not an exploit. How a single individual may feel about it has no bearing on the method's validity, integrity, etc. If Anet said running dungeons was an exploit, then it would be for all intents and purposes, an exploit.

amber dawn · Mar 14, 2011, 02:48 AM // 02:48

It has been said they should not allow people to farm the daily quest to gain exp for a title.
If this is true then shouldn't they not allow ppl to farm any quest in the game for any title?

If I am wrong please point out why someone should be able to farm the quest in NF for ss/lb titles or path to revelations for norn title. But not this one for ldoa.

There have been ppl that have played the game without ever farming the same quest over and over for a title. If there is a thread where these ppl have requested that others not be allowed to repeatedly farm a quest for a title then I apologize and will say nothing further.